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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 5, 2011 11:54:55 GMT -5
I'm named after a theif. Are you surprised? Though, actually, I value honesty above all other virtues. Hate liars. Nasty buggers. Immortals bored me, though I love Numair, I fully admit. I just thought Daine was...flat, as a character. More than her others, and that didn't do it for me. I'm a very character-driven person. |
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Post by onlyaworkingtitle on Jun 5, 2011 11:56:12 GMT -5
When people say Harry Potter was their childhood well, Tamora Pierce's books were my childhood. Ditto. |
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Post by Marina on Jun 5, 2011 12:04:07 GMT -5
The Dodger lies! The Immortals series is my second favorite (after Lioness). And if you want a specific cover, try the amazon marketplace (I feel like an ad every time I mention it, but it's so true!). Find the edition with the cover you want, and there's a 99% chance (if it's an older edition) that somebody's selling a used copy of it for $0.01 (+$3.99 shipping, but still drastically cheaper than most other places). Thanks for the advice, I'll try that!! |
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 6, 2011 2:59:41 GMT -5
I just picked up the collection of short stories today! Because of this thread, I'm now so damned excited to start reading them that I will probably just lock myself in my room and refuse to come out until the book is finished.
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Post by Eternal Lobster on Jun 6, 2011 12:01:02 GMT -5
I just picked up the collection of short stories today! Because of this thread, I'm now so damned excited to start reading them that I will probably just lock myself in my room and refuse to come out until the book is finished. I can has when you are done? I can see why you don't like Daine, but Immortals was the first series of Pierce's that I picked up so it will always have a special place in my heart. Though, I could probably re-read them and argue against Daine being a flat character. She is very different from Alanna, which may be why you don't like her. |
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Post by Marina on Jun 6, 2011 12:10:30 GMT -5
But even Kel is very different from Alanna. For one thing, I think Kel's training was much, much tougher than Alanna's. And if Alanna had to go through the same thing Kel did, there is no way she would have made it. Not to mention the fact that Alanna was a squire to the prince, who was just made a knight himself, whereas Kel was a squire to an experienced knight. Even afterwards Kel was building a refuge camp and fighting a war, whereas Alanna ran away to the desert. Sure she wins every fight, and she was known as the best squire, but we see her serving at dinners more, while Kel is training with weighed weapons. Perhaps Pierce simply expanded on Kel, what she never showed (only implied) with Alanna?
What bothers me is that Alanna is depicted to be just as strong if not stronger than Kel, but if I had to chose, I'd bet on Kel. But maybe I'm just missing pieces because I haven't read the Immortals, though I've heard King Roald made changes to training because of Alanna. So he made it tougher? I need to go read.
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Post by Eternal Lobster on Jun 6, 2011 12:46:03 GMT -5
I've not read the Protector of the Small series yet, but I would hazard a guess and say that more of Alanna's training was implied rather than shown (vs. Kel's training). I think that, when comparing Alanna's series with the more recent ones, the earlier books were a lot more simplified. Song of the Lioness was intended to be an adult novel until it was rejected and Pierce literally cut it up in order to format it into an acceptable YA novel. Since then, I would say that she has become more comfortable with the format of YAL.
As she has aged, Alanna does seem more spoiled (to me). It's like she battled through hardship in her original series and now is just enjoying the life that that battle won her. But then again, we only see her scattered in small appearances in other novels and don't really know what her life is like. I would like to see another series, perhaps not for YA, detailing her adult life. It won't happen, but it would be interesting.
Daine is different from Alanna and Kel, though, because she is not directly involved in the military of Tortall. She is more a scholar and diplomat than a fighter; however, she does fight in her own way!
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Post by onlyaworkingtitle on Jun 6, 2011 12:59:50 GMT -5
Daine is different from Alanna and Kel, though, because she is not directly involved in the military of Tortall. She is more a scholar and diplomat than a fighter; however, she does fight in her own way! I agree on this, and actually quite like the character of Daine (and her stories), perhaps because I can identify with her better than I can with any of the other heroines. Alanna and Kel are physically strong fighters, stubborn and aggressive, but I prefer spending time alone with the wildlife to spending it training (and nothing is cooler than luring a wild monkey into your hand, or chittering at a squirrel until it climbs onto your lap, or convincing an abused dog that she can trust you). |
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 7, 2011 1:08:26 GMT -5
For me, it was always the strong warrior woman because they're different from the norm. Women are expected to be meek or tame or whatever throughout history (wandering womb, anyone?) so it's nice to have a series with strong (both mentally and physically) women to look up to.
Alanna had to deal with a lot, so those who claim that she got off easier than Kel might want to reread that series. She had to deny her own self, her identity as a woman, in order to attain her dreams. She denied her love for Jon for the good of the kingdom, lost her brother - her TWIN brother - and was hunted by one of the strongest mages Tortall had ever seen. She earned everything she has out of hard work and determination and to deny her that is to undermine the achievements of a strong woman in a world that denied the strength of women. It pains me to see this here.
That being said, I still adore Kel. Not only is she physically strong, but she has the strength of mind and will to endure the taunts if her peers and the country. She is strategic and tactical, something that is not often portrayed in fantastic worlds, at least not from what I've seen.
Compared to them, Daine is flat to me. Perhaps it's because she led a calmer lifestyle, but I always felt she hid behind her magic. It defined her, rather than her defining it.
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Post by Marina on Jun 7, 2011 11:27:23 GMT -5
For one thing, it was quite clear that while Alanna might have loved Jon, he was never going to be her final option. You're right in saying that she had to hide her sexuality and even learn how to be a woman later on (but if you recall that was her own choice). She said quite often that she did not want to be a lady. Jon only liked her as a girl after he saw her dressed as one, and he was a jerk most of the time. It took awhile, but Alanna did finally realize that she didn't need Jon to feel like a woman, because unless they're in bed, they're usually arguing. She didn't give up John for the sake of the kingdom, she just didn't want to be queen. She knew she'd have to give up everything she has worked for, just like in our world. And Jon didn't want to be with her unless she did. Well, I say, good riddance.
Thom was a character who I could find little sympathy with, and by the end of the series his relationship with Alanna was also strained. What kind of dear brother resurrects your greatest enemy because some girl claimed he wasn't all that? I'm sorry, but what? He values an opinion of some whore to resurrect a traitor and her sisters nemesis! I think that if he lived Alanna would not be so nice to him.
Kel on the other hand got everything straight up, Kel knew what she was getting into and while her self-esteem might have suffered, I never saw her moping about it. She didn't jump into men's beds to make herself feel like a woman. Kel knew who she was, and who she wasn't.
Someone else here also said that it might have seemed to be that Kel was tougher because we saw much more of her physical trials then Alanna's, who we saw in more magical trials. So I will concede to that. But I still think Kel would have kicked Alanna's butt when they were pages or even squires; and I would still like to know who'd win in a fight when they're older.
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 7, 2011 16:23:23 GMT -5
I remember clearly that she said she would make a terrible queen and that's why she denied Jon when he proposed the situation, which is what I was referring to. She knew that it was best for both of them, even though she knew she loved him.
Regarding Thom, you're likely right; however, he was still her twin and there's not much you can do to avoid that. They were connected, psychically, physically, and magically, so I imagine that despite his madness, he was still important to her.
Part of why Kel knew who she was is because she never had to hide who she was. Alanna hid her sexual identity at the age of ten on whereas Kel did not.
Pitting Alanna against Kel would be interesting, and I think it was even done. I remember a betting scene during one of the books, but I can't recall who won.
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Post by Marina on Jun 7, 2011 16:39:43 GMT -5
I don't know. I still don't think Alanna ever loved Jon to consider marriage to him, even when they just started... "dating(?)".
And you're right, no matter how messed up the family, they're still family. The connection between them? I don't know, it seemed like by the end of the fourth book they drifted pretty far apart. You can kind of tell when she gets angry with him for "borrowing" her gift, and then when they talk for the last time when she finally comes back to the capital. I think that's when she realized she doesn't know who her brother is anymore.
Hmmm... I'll give you that one. I guess no one knows better at ten, or thinks about the consequences of pretending to be the opposite sex for such a long time.
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 7, 2011 17:38:53 GMT -5
You may be correct, though I'm unsure if so. It's been a very, very long time since I've read these series, so it's lucky I've recalled as much as I have.
In regards to Jon and Alanna, I believe she did love him but loved George more. Her love for Jon was companionable, but she knew they were no good for each other - they burned too hot and were too passionate to go well together, in my opinion. Alanna especially is a very passionate person and hot-tempered, so she needed someone like George to temper that. They're good for one another.
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Post by onlyaworkingtitle on Jun 7, 2011 17:43:44 GMT -5
Compared to them, Daine is flat to me. Perhaps it's because she led a calmer lifestyle, but I always felt she hid behind her magic. It defined her, rather than her defining it. The lifestyle that we saw was calmer, yes, but in her backstory she'd been through more than either Alanna or Kel -- entire family killed by bandits, went mad and joined a wolfpack, and oh yeah that whole murdering thing? And her magic defining her rather than her defining it, I think, was tied in well with the fact that it was from her father, and the interplay with the gods (and lower immortals) was made more interesting by her particular breed of magic than it would have been had she been born with the Gift or, like Kel, none at all. So I wouldn't call Daine "flat." |
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Post by Marina on Jun 7, 2011 17:53:53 GMT -5
You may be correct, though I'm unsure if so. It's been a very, very long time since I've read these series, so it's lucky I've recalled as much as I have. In regards to Jon and Alanna, I believe she did love him but loved George more. Her love for Jon was companionable, but she knew they were no good for each other - they burned too hot and were too passionate to go well together, in my opinion. Alanna especially is a very passionate person and hot-tempered, so she needed someone like George to temper that. They're good for one another. I agree completely with that  |
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