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Post by Marina on Jun 13, 2011 22:07:43 GMT -5
The God's helped both of them. Hector simply lost favor with them. (... the devil  ) I was under the impression that the gods stopped helping Hector because they were obligated to defend fate.. and really if they had wanted to, they could have messed it all up, in my opinion. Zeus even wanted to let Hector live but Athena has to persuade him... plus the scales, I guess. Actually, because Zeus was tired of gods feuding and making him chose sides, he told them they couldn't help at all. So whenever they did help, it was against his word. |
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Post by andreaisabbbw on Jun 13, 2011 22:15:27 GMT -5
Yeah, the gods were stepping in it left and right.
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 13, 2011 22:46:24 GMT -5
Hector. I always felt he was the stronger man.
And that earlier statement was correct: to the victor go the spoils. Achilles was a spoiled brat who let tens of men die, if not hundreds, because something was taken from him. He had no honour. Instead, he just sat in his tent and whined. Hector went out and fought to defend his people and his family. His brother was a moron, yes, but he was still blood.
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Post by Marina on Jun 13, 2011 23:40:52 GMT -5
Yes, but the rules of "honor" where different back then. Hector wasn't so much defending his family, he was also defending his future throne. Where is the honor in letting his brother keep a woman of another man? Of course Helen, didn't really mean anything by then, she never really did. It was all about the men fighting for their "honor." Family didn't hold much weight on the scale of men's egos, they were property.
Achilles's prize was taken away, but then again, if he wasn't tricked in coming, he never would have. So men would have died either way. I bet less men died because he came, either that or the Greeks would have gone home earlier if he didn't (what do you guys think?)
And ultimately Hector fails in defending his family, his people, and his city. And he dies a coward, because when he realized he couldn't beat Achilles he ran, the only reason he stopped was because Athena tricked him. If he was a real hero he would have fought and died with honor.
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 14, 2011 1:03:43 GMT -5
Achilles's prize was taken away, but then again, if he wasn't tricked in coming, he never would have. Before I address the rest of your post, kindly cite where the bolded portion comes in. |
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Post by Olive on Jun 14, 2011 7:48:20 GMT -5
Yeah, Achilles is a bit... ok, really whiny... but he's Achilles.
... did that make any sense? No, I didn't think so...
(Far to lazy to argue my point at the moment, I'll return later.)
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Post by Marina on Jun 14, 2011 10:06:17 GMT -5
Achilles's prize was taken away, but then again, if he wasn't tricked in coming, he never would have. Before I address the rest of your post, kindly cite where the bolded portion comes in. This is pre-Iliad, and post-Homer so I'm not sure if we can use that in the argument, but his mother Thetis, begged Achilles not to go because of the prophesy. Achilles didn't want to upset his Mommy. At one point she even hid him on an island, dressed in drag, amongst the daughters of the king or whatnot. Odysseus had to come up with a way to figure out how to lure him out. I think he presented presents of dresses, but hid a sword and shield amongst them, so that when the "girls" came to chose, Achilles went straight for the spear. After which Odysseus convinces him to come. (you can find it on wiki) |
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Post by Olive on Jun 14, 2011 10:39:11 GMT -5
Before I address the rest of your post, kindly cite where the bolded portion comes in. This is pre-Iliad, and post-Homer so I'm not sure if we can use that in the argument, but his mother Thetis, begged Achilles not to go because of the prophesy. Achilles didn't want to upset his Mommy. At one point she even hid him on an island, dressed in drag, amongst the daughters of the king or whatnot. Odysseus had to come up with a way to figure out how to lure him out. I think he presented presents of dresses, but hid a sword and shield amongst them, so that when the "girls" came to chose, Achilles went straight for the spear. After which Odysseus convinces him to come. (you can find it on wiki) Ah, I remember that myth. Oh god, I miss that class so much now. |
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Post by Silva on Jun 14, 2011 13:33:20 GMT -5
I don't think my brain was functioning when I said a lot of what I did. I'm sorry.
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 14, 2011 15:44:21 GMT -5
Before I address the rest of your post, kindly cite where the bolded portion comes in. This is pre-Iliad, and post-Homer so I'm not sure if we can use that in the argument, but his mother Thetis, begged Achilles not to go because of the prophesy. Achilles didn't want to upset his Mommy. At one point she even hid him on an island, dressed in drag, amongst the daughters of the king or whatnot. Odysseus had to come up with a way to figure out how to lure him out. I think he presented presents of dresses, but hid a sword and shield amongst them, so that when the "girls" came to chose, Achilles went straight for the spear. After which Odysseus convinces him to come. (you can find it on wiki) I remember this myth. Anyway, in Greek mythology, the way to get honour was to take it from another. It was known as "aritei". Most of the time, for men, it was gained via victory in battle, or other competitions. By refusing to fight, Achilles was denying himself aritei, as well as proving to be a weak man for refusing to fight. Achilles may or may not have also agreed to fight for Helen should she be kidnapped (again). *points to avatar* I would have to consult my books, and they are currently not here. Additionally, the Iliad begins: "Sing, Goddess, of the rage, of Peleus' son Achilles the accursed rage, which brought pain to thousands of the Achaeans." Pain to thousands of Achaeans? Sorry, but that does not describe a hero to me, but neither Greek nor modern concepts. |
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Post by Marina on Jun 14, 2011 15:57:44 GMT -5
Yeah, but all Hector had to do then, is give Helen back and he would have prevented the entire war all together.
And actually Achilles had no choice, I don't remember what myth it was, but remember it was something about all the kings swearing allegiance to Agamemnon? And because Menelaus was his brother, Agamemnon goes to fight, and if he goes to fight, so does everyone who swore him fealty. I'm sorry I don't remember the details or the myth.
Also, like I've already said, the war had little to do with Helen as a woman. What Paris did was dishonor his hosts hospitality, which was the worst thing a Greek could do.
Achilles might not seem like a hero by modern standards because his tantrum led to thousands of deaths, but if anything, his prolonged anger makes him godlike because it has carried on for so long and caused so much pain. It's kind of like what happens when one of the actual gods is pissed, like when Apollo send the plague.
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 14, 2011 16:12:44 GMT -5
Yeah, but all Hector had to do then, is give Helen back and he would have prevented the entire war all together. I would love to see you argue with Aphrodite. And actually Achilles had no choice, I don't remember what myth it was, but remember it was something about all the kings swearing allegiance to Agamemnon? And because Menelaus was his brother, Agamemnon goes to fight, and if he goes to fight, so does everyone who swore him fealty. I'm sorry I don't remember the details or the myth. Yes, it was during the first kidnapping of Helen. Achilles wasn't a suitor, though, and it was the suitors who swore allegience to Helen's husband, so that should she again be harmed, the suitors would come to protect her. That's what I was referring to above. Also, like I've already said, the war had little to do with Helen as a woman. What Paris did was dishonor his hosts hospitality, which was the worst thing a Greek could do. As a woman? Maybe not, but Paris and Aphrodite stole someone's wife. Big no-no, on many levels. Achilles might not seem like a hero by modern standards because his tantrum led to thousands of deaths, but if anything, his prolonged anger makes him godlike because it has carried on for so long and caused so much pain. It's kind of like what happens when one of the actual gods is pissed, like when Apollo send the plague. Erm...I think we read separate mythology. Rage or not, Achilles was still a demi-god, so there's no argument over his actual rage. Though, if we want to discuss rage, Hera in The Aeneid would have been a better example. |
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Post by Marina on Jun 14, 2011 16:22:19 GMT -5
So the War was justified, but I don't see why you're making Achilles the bigest scapegoat for all the deaths. I think it can be argued over who is the most responsible for the most deaths.
What I meant about the rage, is that instead looking of a coward who refused to fight, Achilles rage makes him even more godlike. I am aware that he is a demi-god.
And I haven't read the Aeneid.
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Post by Dodger Thirteen on Jun 14, 2011 16:31:52 GMT -5
Look, I have all kinds of respect for Achilles as a character and a warrior, but the question here is who is the better hero. Achilles can be a hero, yes, but he just wasn't in my eyes. As for Hector, I think he's the better hero.
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Post by Marina on Jun 14, 2011 16:35:49 GMT -5
Look, I have all kinds of respect for Achilles as a character and a warrior, but the question here is who is the better hero. Achilles can be a hero, yes, but he just wasn't in my eyes. As for Hector, I think he's the better hero. Because of his strong family values? You gotta do better than that. |
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