Why Good Grammar?

[rayyychul]

I was browsing the Fuck Yeah English Major Armadillo Tumblr today and noticed that many of the latest submissions seem to take proper grammar to an extreme: any error is frowned upon and mocked. I've seen people have a heart attack over a typo. I've seen people make it abundantly clear that anyone who mixes up "their" and "there" is incompetent.

So I ask you, English Majors:

Are the type to correct someone's grammar and spelling without hesitation?
Do you think less of someone who mixes up "there" and "their"?
Why do you care so much if a mistake is made?
Do you not care at all?

[Gina]

For me, it depends on the situation.
If you're a new speaker, or English isn't your first language, it's FINE. I've only taken three years of Spanish, and as much as I try to be grammatically correct, I probably sounded like the most horribly uneducated person ever when I tried to communicate in Spain. When you're learning a language, you're going to make mistakes.

I can also certainly pardon it when someone has a learning disability or some other factor that makes it harder for them to be completely correct 100% of the time. My little sister has a learning disability, and even though she's too naive to know that people make fun of her for some of her spelling errors, it makes me want to snap someone in half (I'm just a tad overprotective and defensive of her... ). I would never be able to put someone down for the same reason.

NOW. When someone does not have anything holding them back and they insist on posting "OMG u guyzzz i had da BEST time at lil wayne last night!!!1 that concert was wayyy to fun. if you didnt go to this concert, your missing out!" as their Facebook status, yeah, I'm going to think a little less of them. I know I shouldn't take as much offense to this as I do, but it's almost as if they're taking their good education (I go to a high school recognized as above-average when it comes to quality of education and test scores) and non-learning-disordered mind for granted. Some people make those spelling errors because they truly struggle with the English language and learning in general. You're just being lazy and refuse to realize that you are really lucky for having the level of education being given to you. It's time to mature a little and actually use that education, because someone else in the world would KILL for it.

/rant.

[Marina]

Little mistakes are fine, but if I disowned people for every grammar mistake I ever come across, I wouldn't be able to talk to my own self. I make occasional mistakes myself, so I'm not going to judge anyone for small errors.
But like Gina says, if someone is just too lazy to bother with the language, or they think that talking like a moron is a cool thing, than I get mad.
English being my second language, I find it shocking that I speak and write better than more than half of native speakers. Or when they don't care about their own language enough to even make an effort.

[rayyychul]

English being my second language, I find it shocking that I speak and write better than more than half of native speakers.

Non-native speakers generally learn/know the technical aspects of the language better than non-native speakers, because more effort is put into learning them.

[rayyychul]

Personally, it doesn't bother me in the least. If someone wants to use incessent chat speak, then it's fine by me. It doesn't harm me in any way, so I don't see why I should care. They are well within their rights to update their Facebook status in whatever way they wish.

What does bother me is when people feel it's their duty to correct every error they come across. I find those submissions in FYEMA that point out an error someone made and end it "friendship off/reconsidering friendship/*cringe*" really pretentious.

[rayyychul]

Would you consider posting on forums or social networking sites part of your "written work"?

Do you respect people less if they make an error and don't correct themselves? Why?

[tosney]

I think the submissions you're talking about would be horrid if people were actually like that, but in the name of humor they are very much exaggerated and that's fine.

In real life, I don't really care about people's average grammar mistakes - I mix up my own sentences all the time because I'm such a space case. I do tease people I know once in awhile, just for the fun of teasing, and I wouldn't do this to someone I don't know well.

I do find it difficult to read really horrid chat speak, which annoys me, but I wouldn't comment to correct a facebook status or anything. And thought I have an automatically negative reaction to people typing that way, it doesn't make me think of them as less of a person. I might automatically categorize them as less academic sometimes, but I consciously know that's not really true and I've been proven wrong so many times I try to catch myself from making automatic judgements.

I have never met a native speaker who cannot step up and use more proper sentences, even if they have more than average gramatical errors. I realize there are tons of informal dialects and deviations of standard written english and I can still respect someone if they don't use it day-to-day. Their Eyes Were Watching God fascinated me because it made me aware that language is also part of a culture, and it does not make a culture less rich or civil or moral because they don't use 'proper english'.

That went a little off tack, but it's still a little relevant, I suppose.

[Dodger Thirteen]

Aug 14, 2011 19:50:44 GMT -5 rayyychul said:

Are the type to correct someone's grammar and spelling without hesitation?

You forgot to add "you".

Aug 14, 2011 19:50:44 GMT -5 rayyychul said:

Do you think less of someone who mixes up "there" and "their"?

Yes, unless they have extenuating circumstances, a la learning disability, medical issues, English as a second language, and similar issues.

Aug 14, 2011 19:50:44 GMT -5 rayyychul said:

Why do you care so much if a mistake is made?

Because it's wrong and I work(ed) damn hard to ensure that I know the rules of English. If I can do it, you can do it. It's the standard and I hold everyone to high standards. Most disappoint, but I've been surprised* from time to time.

Also, it's not that hard. If you're over the age of eighteen and still don't know the difference between "there" and "they're" and "their"...what the heck are you doing.

Aug 14, 2011 19:50:44 GMT -5 rayyychul said:

Do you not care at all?

See above.

Aug 14, 2011 23:06:41 GMT -5 Eternal Lobster said:

Edit: My grammar professor explained to us the difference between spoken and written language, along with WHY it is so important to have correct grammar. Grammar helps to create a consistent language, making communication between different groups of people easier. Spoken, she didn't give a damn whether or not you got the rules right. Spoken language has a lot of culture connected to it, and you can't be critical of it for that. Written, however, tries to transcend those boundaries of spoken language/dialects.

This. Exactly this. Why? Because scientists are the same way. That's why American scientists still use the Metric system, even though that's not our predominant system of measurement. It's to make a standardized, global system of measurement so that someone in China can understand the experiments of someone in America and Australia or Germany, etc. and be able to reproduce that experiment to validate the results. English is no different just because it's a language.


*Holy snap, I just spelled "surprised" in the British fashion without thinking about it. D:

[onlyaworkingtitle]

Aug 15, 2011 11:02:51 GMT -5 Dodger Thirteen said:

Aug 14, 2011 23:06:41 GMT -5 Eternal Lobster said:

Edit: My grammar professor explained to us the difference between spoken and written language, along with WHY it is so important to have correct grammar. Grammar helps to create a consistent language, making communication between different groups of people easier. Spoken, she didn't give a damn whether or not you got the rules right. Spoken language has a lot of culture connected to it, and you can't be critical of it for that. Written, however, tries to transcend those boundaries of spoken language/dialects.

This. Exactly this. Why? Because scientists are the same way. That's why American scientists still use the Metric system, even though that's not our predominant system of measurement. It's to make a standardized, global system of measurement so that someone in China can understand the experiments of someone in America and Australia or Germany, etc. and be able to reproduce that experiment to validate the results. English is no different just because it's a language.

And now it's everyone's favorite time -- Extreme Example Time!
Example:

Now, I can (with a good deal of twisting in my brain) figure out what Kim is trying to say, despite her corrupted shorthand. "Bored at home: bumping to music, facebook-ing, tumblr, and talking to my love."

But do you think anyone whose first language wasn't English would be able to decipher this? Some of these were extreme leaps -- how is "a'h" "at home"? -- but I had to use context and logic to get there, and I'm not even sure I'm correct. And I don't have a clue what that hyphen at the beginning is for. Out of context, "lve" could be "love or "live"; "tlkn" could be "talking" or "Tolkien" (no really I've seen that).

Chatspeak is a form of shorthand -- which is intended for the self to read. In notes and reminders to yourself, it's fine to use whatever language you like, so long as you will remember what you meant. If I need to remind myself to pick up flour at the store, I can just write "flr" on the grocery list (and since I'm not likely to buy flooring at Stop & Shop, that's enough) -- I could even doodle a flower on the list, and that would be enough.

However, in something that you intend someone else to read -- even if only one other person -- it is your responsibility to make the task of comprehending as easy for them as you can. And yes, that means spelling out each word, getting your "there"s and "its"s right, and capitalizing sentences and proper nouns.

Also, in Kim's comment -- anyone have any idea what "smh" means? I really can't figure it out. Based on context, I'm guessing either "So Much Horror" or "Sorry My Homies." Anyone else have a suggestion?

[Dodger Thirteen]

The Google states "smh" to be "shaking my head."

[Marina]

I harassed my twelve year old cousin to correctly spell everything in her facebook statuses. How did I do this? I posted the correct version of status in the comment to the status.
It didn't take as long as I thought it would.
I guess she didn't want her geeky cousin to ruin her image or something.
Also, it doesn't work on people you're not related to, because they they just erase what you say.

[embonpoint]

This might sound a bit paradoxical, but it's not really individual mistakes/individual people who consistently make these mistakes, it's the entire educational system that consistently fails in teaching children, and teenagers, the rules. So it's the system that allows people to make these mistakes constantly without knowing, and without caring. People think it's not important to have a good grasp of grammar; people think it doesn't matter which there/they're/their they use because you can understand what they say anyway. That's wrong. That is not the right attitude to have and it disgusts me and hurts me and angers me. Grammar needs to be taught. People need to know how to communicate properly, professionally, clearly, accurately, intelligently... Otherwise it all breaks down.

Do I correct people?
I used to, almost all the time, but it was never received well and in the end, I gave up. I couldn't take it any more. I should correct people, in the same way I correct people when they say something offensive; I should be as open and blunt when it comes to grammar as I am when it comes to feminism. So, maybe I'll start doing it again.
Obviously, I understand that sometimes mistakes happen and they're just typos that have been missed in the rush to post something (or whatever the situation is), but even then, they should be corrected (and actually, they're generally the times when people appreciate being corrected).

Do I think less of someone...?
Yes, a little, in some respects (barring extenuating circumstances as others have said). If they don't care enough about what they're saying to use the correct word, then why should I care? It upsets me that they obviously don't care about grammar/the English language and I'm annoyed, because they clearly don't know because they either were never taught, or weren't corrected on it (see first point). I don't think less of them as a person. I don't think they are worth less because they don't consider grammar (I realise that's the opposite of how I started to answer this question...), but I tend to think that we are quite different, and perhaps we wouldn't get along that well. Which is not to say I wouldn't be friends with somebody with bad grammar (I have one friend who always manages to use 'most ____est', and another who always uses 'sat' when it should be 'sitting'), but how can people not care, y'know? I don't understand those people.
Boy, what a crap answer. I don't know!

Why do I care...?
See above, first paragraph.

[onlyaworkingtitle]

Aug 16, 2011 8:18:36 GMT -5 Eternal Lobster said:

Aug 15, 2011 12:20:19 GMT -5 Dodger Thirteen said:

The Google states "smh" to be "shaking my head."

See, I've always thought that "smh" to stand for "so much hate." But most of the Urban Dictionary entries are "shaking my head." I like my way better!

Yeah, I prefer my versions, too... But this is exactly the problem with bizarre initialisms. They rely heavily on interpretation. I never would have gotten "shaking my head" from that.

[rayyychul]

You forgot to add "you".

Oh well. Nobody died.

But this is exactly the problem with bizarre initialisms

What, exactly is the problem? If you don't fully understand something, then you need to look it up (6 of the 7 entries on the first page of Urban Dictionary [which I was linked to by Googling "SMH acronym"] for SMH providing "shaking my head" as a definition). I find using these "bizarre" acronyms on par with using stronger vocabulary words. Not everyone is going to understand them, and if you don't, it's on you to look it up or ask for an explanation.

[andreaisabbbw]

Aug 15, 2011 12:06:16 GMT -5 onlyaworkingtitle said:

And now it's everyone's favorite time -- Extreme Example Time!
Example:

Now, I can (with a good deal of twisting in my brain) figure out what Kim is trying to say, despite her corrupted shorthand. "Bored at home: bumping to music, facebook-ing, tumblr, and talking to my love."

But do you think anyone whose first language wasn't English would be able to decipher this? Some of these were extreme leaps -- how is "a'h" "at home"? -- but I had to use context and logic to get there, and I'm not even sure I'm correct. And I don't have a clue what that hyphen at the beginning is for. Out of context, "lve" could be "love or "live"; "tlkn" could be "talking" or "Tolkien" (no really I've seen that).

Chatspeak is a form of shorthand -- which is intended for the self to read. In notes and reminders to yourself, it's fine to use whatever language you like, so long as you will remember what you meant. If I need to remind myself to pick up flour at the store, I can just write "flr" on the grocery list (and since I'm not likely to buy flooring at Stop & Shop, that's enough) -- I could even doodle a flower on the list, and that would be enough.

However, in something that you intend someone else to read -- even if only one other person -- it is your responsibility to make the task of comprehending as easy for them as you can. And yes, that means spelling out each word, getting your "there"s and "its"s right, and capitalizing sentences and proper nouns.

Also, in Kim's comment -- anyone have any idea what "smh" means? I really can't figure it out. Based on context, I'm guessing either "So Much Horror" or "Sorry My Homies." Anyone else have a suggestion?

I couldn't read that Facebook status until you deciphered it. O.O

I try not to let it bother me if I catch someone using incorrect grammar because I'd be correcting a lot of people I know and probably have an aneurysm. One thing that I like to do is bug people who use the incorrect "your" for "you're" in a status: I ask "My what?" until they correct themselves. I also have not taken my required Traditional Grammar course, so my grammar is still unpolished and I can't really compulsively correct someone else when I still make mistakes.